[Jimmy_Lemon]

I think you lose your right to complain about the state of this country if you don't vote.

My feelings exactly! If you don't vote you can't complain about how you taxes are spent and how much you have to pay for things like your TV license. You obviously don't care enough to pay attention or spend anytime working out how to use your one bit of control over your country and its future.

I think the age should be brought down to 16 and it should be made a legal requirment to vote! Even if it means adding a "none of the above" box on the ballot - at least it would make (some) people think!

[MK Chris]

Are you being serious there Topher?

Absolutely - I think they should be given the right to decide their future; for the ones who aren't interested, they won't vote anyway...

Obviously if they've got an ASBO they shouldn't be allowed to vote, in the same way that if an adult has a criminal record they shouldn't be allowed to. (If an adult has an ASBO, I assume they can't vote?)

[whytie]

As regards the voting thing, I think you lose your right to complain about the state of this country if you don't vote. When you look at the BNP and other far-right parties properly, you realise that their policies on immigration are too extreme... Do you have a hatred of black people?

I've paid taxes for 9 solid years now, I think I have the right to say how they are spent, it doesn't matter who comes into power, the tories wrecked the country and labour are doing the same, and any other party will be just as bad.

No, I don't have a hatred of black people, I'd just like to see the immigration laws toughened up and the BNP have the right idea. With all the foreigners coming in now and accepting lower wages it's going to become standard to pay low wages and where is that going to leave us?

Obviously if they've got an ASBO they shouldn't be allowed to vote, in the same way that if an adult has a criminal record they shouldn't be allowed to. (If an adult has an ASBO, I assume they can't vote?)

Thats a bit of a bold statement, lots of people have criminal records from stupid things they done when they were young and things that may not have been their fault. Tony Martin as a prime example, should he not be allowed to vote because he blew away a couple of pikey b******s intent on screwing his house?

[RussT]

Whytie back to the car insurance thing, you say you are insured in case you crash your motor, surely a TV licence is insurance against being prosecuted.

You also say that you choose not to have a licence, some people choose not to have car insurance because they disagree with the premiums or whatever.

Basically it's the same thing because not having either one means you are breaking the law. Of course you may get away with it, just as people get away without insurance but the law is the law and regardless of whether or not you agree with it, you should abide by it or face the consequences. There are generally no justifiable reasons for breaking it, that's why they are there in the first place.

[MK Chris]

I've paid taxes for 9 solid years now, I think I have the right to say how they are spent, it doesn't matter who comes into power, the tories wrecked the country and labour are doing the same, and any other party will be just as bad.

You don't pay all your taxes, you don't pay your TV licence for a start... As for income tax and the like, well if you didn't use your vote, how can you complain that the Government in power is abusing the money they get from that? You wasted your opportunity to have your say.

No, I don't have a hatred of black people, I'd just like to see the immigration laws toughened up and the BNP have the right idea. With all the foreigners coming in now and accepting lower wages it's going to become standard to pay low wages and where is that going to leave us?

But the BNP are a bunch of bigots. Fair enough, the country is basically full up, but I think the problem stems from a long, long time ago when we invaded lots of countries... Now we're suffering the consequences of that.

Obviously if they've got an ASBO they shouldn't be allowed to vote, in the same way that if an adult has a criminal record they shouldn't be allowed to. (If an adult has an ASBO, I assume they can't vote?)

Thats a bit of a bold statement, lots of people have criminal records from stupid things they done when they were young and things that may not have been their fault. Tony Martin as a prime example, should he not be allowed to vote because he blew away a couple of pikey b******s intent on screwing his house?

OK fair point... That should be relaxed - I've just looked at who is excluded from voting and the current rules seem OK, however, for people under the age of 18, if 16 year olds were given the right to vote, if they have any conviction relating to antisocial behaviour they should not be considered mature enough to vote.

[whytie]

Whytie back to the car insurance thing, you say you are insured in case you crash your motor, surely a TV licence is insurance against being prosecuted.

You also say that you choose not to have a licence, some people choose not to have car insurance because they disagree with the premiums or whatever.

Basically it's the same thing because not having either one means you are breaking the law. Of course you may get away with it, just as people get away without insurance but the law is the law and regardless of whether or not you agree with it, you should abide by it or face the consequences. There are generally no justifiable reasons for breaking it, that's why they are there in the first place.

What you are saying is crazy. If I want car insurance I can shop around for it, where as whether I want the BBC's services or not I am forced into paying for them. Surely thats justification as to why I don't pay.

[fish heads]

Are you being serious there Topher?

Absolutely - I think they should be given the right to decide their future; for the ones who aren't interested, they won't vote anyway...

But why 16 over 18, or even 17 or 15? Different people reach levels of "maturity" at different times. When I was 16 I can't really imagine many of my peer group bothering to vote in an election, whereas when we were 18 it was a different story (in my experience). I can't really think of any real advantages to change the age personally.

[whytie]

I've paid taxes for 9 solid years now, I think I have the right to say how they are spent, it doesn't matter who comes into power, the tories wrecked the country and labour are doing the same, and any other party will be just as bad.

You don't pay all your taxes, you don't pay your TV licence for a start... As for income tax and the like, well if you didn't use your vote, how can you complain that the Government in power is abusing the money they get from that? You wasted your opportunity to have your say.

No, I don't have a hatred of black people, I'd just like to see the immigration laws toughened up and the BNP have the right idea. With all the foreigners coming in now and accepting lower wages it's going to become standard to pay low wages and where is that going to leave us?

But the BNP are a bunch of bigots. Fair enough, the country is basically full up, but I think the problem stems from a long, long time ago when we invaded lots of countries... Now we're suffering the consequences of that.

Obviously if they've got an ASBO they shouldn't be allowed to vote, in the same way that if an adult has a criminal record they shouldn't be allowed to. (If an adult has an ASBO, I assume they can't vote?)

Thats a bit of a bold statement, lots of people have criminal records from stupid things they done when they were young and things that may not have been their fault. Tony Martin as a prime example, should he not be allowed to vote because he blew away a couple of pikey b******s intent on screwing his house?

OK fair point... That should be relaxed - I've just looked at who is excluded from voting and the current rules seem OK, however, for people under the age of 18, if 16 year olds were given the right to vote, if they have any conviction relating to antisocial behaviour they should not be considered mature enough to vote.

The tv license is not classed as a tax, so, yes I do pay all my taxes. I don't vote because I couldn't give a monkeys who runs the country, all I know is that I pay tax so I am entitled to have my say on how it is spent, regardless of who the government is. Although I like Jimmy Lemons, 'none of the above' idea.

Agree, the BNP are a bunch of bigots, I just like some of their policies, thats all.

Also agree about the under 18's antisocial behaviour point.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

This is one in depth discussion - I am loving it

[MK Chris]

Are you being serious there Topher?

Absolutely - I think they should be given the right to decide their future; for the ones who aren't interested, they won't vote anyway...

But why 16 over 18, or even 17 or 15? Different people reach levels of "maturity" at different times. When I was 16 I can't really imagine many of my peer group bothering to vote in an election, whereas when we were 18 it was a different story (in my experience). I can't really think of any real advantages to change the age personally.

Hmm.. Well I do know people who would have used their vote at 16, and used it seriously. I think as a lot of people start to pay taxes at 16, they should be able to vote and have their say.

At 16 you can get married and join the army. Why not vote? That said, it certainly shouldn't be any lower than 16.

[whatsthestory]

No, I don't have a hatred of black people, I'd just like to see the immigration laws toughened up and the BNP have the right idea.

I've read all your posts on this thread and you talk a load of crap. You keep saying that you want your say on how taxes are spent(fair enough), but yet you don't vote, slight hyprocracy there! I'm not just talking about general elections, you do realise there are other elections as well e.g. council, EMP, etc...

Secondly you believe the BNP have the 'right ideas', this is a party that continues to encourage bigortary and hatred of anybody who isn't white. This is the party who's leader Nick somebody was recently prosectued for making racists comments and encouraging violence.

You go on about all these immigrants 'lowering wages'. Those LEGAL immigrants offer a very valuable service to this country, there is a large demand for skilled workmen in this country as well as people in the service industry(waitors, cleaners, childcare etc...) These migrant workers allow the majority of people to work in higher paid jobs like office work etc...

Either your just a WUM (wind up merchant) or your an idiot!

[whytie]

I've read all your posts on this thread and you talk a load of crap. You keep saying that you want your say on how taxes are spent(fair enough), but yet you don't vote, slight hyprocracy there! I'm not just talking about general elections, you do realise there are other elections as well e.g. council, EMP, etc...

Secondly you believe the BNP have the 'right ideas', this is a party that continues to encourage bigortary and hatred of anybody who isn't white. This is the party who's leader Nick somebody was recently prosectued for making racists comments and encouraging violence.

You go on about all these immigrants 'lowering wages'. Those LEGAL immigrants offer a very valuable service to this country, there is a large demand for skilled workmen in this country as well as people in the service industry(waitors, cleaners, childcare etc...) These migrant workers allow the majority of people to work in higher paid jobs like office work etc...

Either your just a WUM (wind up merchant) or your an idiot!

Well you oviously never read them properly idiot, perhaps you should've gone to specsavers. I've got better things to do than go to local elections and elect some jumped up little fanny in a suit who'll do just as bad a job as his predecessor.

Had you read my posts you would see that I agree the BNP is biggoted, however I said I agree with some of their policies, not that I support them in general. The BNP is getting more and more seats so obviously the general public are thinking along the same lines as me regards the state of this countries immigration laws.

Here's a couple of their policies I agree with-

---------------------------

IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years. To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question. We will abolish the 'positive discrimination' schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries.

LAW AND ORDER - crack down on crime!

The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly. The liberal fixation with the 'rights' of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims. We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals.

--------------------------------------------------------------


In no way do I support the BNP but these policies make sense to me and if memory serves me right, I think you'll find that Nick Griffin was acquitted.



Also, what about the unskilled British people who can't get jobs because foreigners are working for less than the minimum wage, they have no alternative but to join the dole que, further increasing my already high tax rates.

From your whole attitude I can only assume you yourself are an immigrant, probably here on a forged passport and sweeping floors for a living.

[whatsthestory]

Well you oviously never read them properly idiot, perhaps you should've gone to specsavers. I've got better things to do than go to local elections and elect some jumped up little fanny in a suit who'll do just as bad a job as his predecessor.

Had you read my posts you would see that I agree the BNP is biggoted, however I said I agree with some of their policies, not that I support them in general. The BNP is getting more and more seats so obviously the general public are thinking along the same lines as me regards the state of this countries immigration laws.

Here's a couple of their policies I agree with-

---------------------------

IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years. To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question. We will abolish the 'positive discrimination' schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries.

LAW AND ORDER - crack down on crime!

The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly. The liberal fixation with the 'rights' of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims. We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals.

--------------------------------------------------------------


In no way do I support the BNP but these policies make sense to me.


Also, what about the unskilled British people who can't get jobs because foreigners are working for less than the minimum wage, they have no alternative but to join the dole que, further increasing my already high tax rates.

From your whole attitude I can only assume you yourself are an immigrant, probably here on a forged passport and sweeping floors for a living.

Firstly (not that this should matter), I'm a white male in my twenties, born and bread in England. I am currently swicthing jobs from a training co-ordinator to a sports journalist. Not sweeping floors as you put it.

'the native British people' (in the first line of the BNP policy), what the hell does that mean? Who's that? Norman's or Saxons or maybe Celts? Why don't we just introduce the Grandfather clause that the Slave owners used in the 1870s in USA. What a load of rubbish. f

I could continue going on about the BNP but obviously there's no point.

In no way do I support the BNP but these policies make sense to me.

Is that not supporting them then? It's like saying I don't like Hitler but he had some good ideas.

Also, what about the unskilled British people who can't get jobs because foreigners are working for less than the minimum wage, they have no alternative but to join the dole que, further increasing my already high tax rates.

Quite simple, become skilled! It's never been so easy to learn a trade or go to college etc... You can even get paid to learn new skills by the Gov.

Unlike a lot of people I beleive it's your right not to vote as well as to vote, but by not voting you have absolutely no right to moan about taxes, foreign policy etc...

Lastly I don't think you even uderstand the term immigrant, there is a massive difference between, migrant workers, legal and illegal immigrants and Asylum seekers. I don't think you know which one your talking about, just 'those forigners coming over here and taking our jobs'.

[Jimmy_Lemon]

Well said whatsthestory - Can't really say anymore!

I don't think I could dissagree with those BNP ideas any stronger! Utter bull!

[whytie]

Well you oviously never read them properly idiot, perhaps you should've gone to specsavers. I've got better things to do than go to local elections and elect some jumped up little fanny in a suit who'll do just as bad a job as his predecessor.

Had you read my posts you would see that I agree the BNP is biggoted, however I said I agree with some of their policies, not that I support them in general. The BNP is getting more and more seats so obviously the general public are thinking along the same lines as me regards the state of this countries immigration laws.

Here's a couple of their policies I agree with-

---------------------------

IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years. To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question. We will abolish the 'positive discrimination' schemes that have made white Britons second-class citizens. We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries.

LAW AND ORDER - crack down on crime!

The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly. The liberal fixation with the 'rights' of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims. We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals.

--------------------------------------------------------------


In no way do I support the BNP but these policies make sense to me.


Also, what about the unskilled British people who can't get jobs because foreigners are working for less than the minimum wage, they have no alternative but to join the dole que, further increasing my already high tax rates.

From your whole attitude I can only assume you yourself are an immigrant, probably here on a forged passport and sweeping floors for a living.

Firstly (not that this should matter), I'm a white male in my twenties, born and bread in England. I am currently swicthing jobs from a training co-ordinator to a sports journalist. Not sweeping floors as you put it.

'the native British people' (in the first line of the BNP policy), what the hell does that mean? Who's that? Norman's or Saxons or maybe Celts? Why don't we just introduce the Grandfather clause that the Slave owners used in the 1870s in USA. What a load of rubbish. f

I could continue going on about the BNP but obviously there's no point.

In no way do I support the BNP but these policies make sense to me.

Is that not supporting them then? It's like saying I don't like Hitler but he had some good ideas.

Also, what about the unskilled British people who can't get jobs because foreigners are working for less than the minimum wage, they have no alternative but to join the dole que, further increasing my already high tax rates.

Quite simple, become skilled! It's never been so easy to learn a trade or go to college etc... You can even get paid to learn new skills by the Gov.

Unlike a lot of people I beleive it's your right not to vote as well as to vote, but by not voting you have absolutely no right to moan about taxes, foreign policy etc...

Lastly I don't think you even uderstand the term immigrant, there is a massive difference between, migrant workers, legal and illegal immigrants and Asylum seekers. I don't think you know which one your talking about, just 'those forigners coming over here and taking our jobs'.

You don't know who native British people are, and you want to be a journalist? I can see I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.

Your analogy about Hitler was crap. I could say, 'Man Utd have used great tactics this season and played well', that doesn't mean I support them does it?

Maybe in your rosy little world with your comfortable upbringing its easy to 'become skilled', and go to college, however for alot of people its not an option. They have debts and families to support, sauntering around a college and getting a two hundred pound a month bursary is just not enough. You need to bring your head out of the clouds and see the real world.

What you're not getting into that head of yours is the fact that I don't care who comes into power, if it makes you happier I'll go along to the polling station, shut my eyes, point to the card, marking the party who its nearest to.

If I don't have the right to have my say in how my taxes are spent or the immigration policys does this mean everyone who didn't vote Labour has no right either?

I completely understand the term immigrant, if you need me to explain it then perhaps it's you who doesn't understand it. It's thanks to the attitude of people like you that this country is in such a sorry state.

Well said whatsthestory - Can't really say anymore!

I don't think I could dissagree with those BNP ideas any stronger! Utter bull!

So you believe that courts must consider the rights of criminals over victims. You also believe that illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay here?

You're a crackpot if you do!

[Sidders]

the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.

How could anyone agree with that? It is xenophobic, pure and simple.

[MK Chris]

The BNP are very nearly as bad as the National Front.

[Sidders]

And the Nazis.

[bumheed7]

mon the whytie!

[whatsthestory]

I can't be bothered to quote the whole lot, to big.

"You don't know who native British people are". How do you define a person who is 'native'. How long they've lived here? The colour of their skin? It can be defind lots of ways, somebody who comes here to live, who was born here, etc... I am against the way the BNP use it, that you can only be British if your a white working class family.

Becoming skilled doesn't mean going to necessarily to college, as stated before. Ok I'll put it another way so you can understand, migrant workers do the jobs that 'unskilled people' don't want to do. Working long hours in factories, cleaning etc... As I said before their is a large shortage of workers in certain areas and we (britian) don't have enough workers to fill them. As I'm sure your aware the Scotish fishing industry employ a large amount of Polish workers to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do e.g. gutting and sorting.

If you don't see the very important role immigrant workers play in our economy then fine, there's no point us even discussing it.

As this is meant to be a message board about the Chris Moyles show I think that's enough politics. Just hope in future you won't post such hypocritical nonsense, with nothing to back up your ideas. I still reckon your a WUM!

[whytie]

the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.

How could anyone agree with that? It is xenophobic, pure and simple.

You offer these immigrants the money and you could bet your bottom dollar the majority of them would jump at the chance. The majority of them are here after all, only for a home and benefits, provided by the mugs of the British government, and paid for by us. The majority come here under a pack of lies anyway, stating refuge when infact they just see us as easy pickings.

Australia has the right idea, they don't let any of them in. Thats why their country prospers.

The BNP are very nearly as bad as the National Front.

Yes, the BNP do have some large problems regards some of their racist views, but to compare them to the NF is a bit of an exaggeration.

And the Nazis.

Thats laughable at most, you think a party of the same caliber as the nazis would be allowed to exist freely in Britain?

mon the whytie!

Seems like no-one here gives a fook about the state of this country mate. Either that or they are too scared to air their views. Think I'll start voting SNP.

I can't be bothered to quote the whole lot, to big.

"You don't know who native British people are". How do you define a person who is 'native'. How long they've lived here? The colour of their skin? It can be defind lots of ways, somebody who comes here to live, who was born here, etc... I am against the way the BNP use it, that you can only be British if your a white working class family.

Becoming skilled doesn't mean going to necessarily to college, as stated before. Ok I'll put it another way so you can understand, migrant workers do the jobs that 'unskilled people' don't want to do. Working long hours in factories, cleaning etc... As I said before their is a large shortage of workers in certain areas and we (britian) don't have enough workers to fill them. As I'm sure your aware the Scotish fishing industry employ a large amount of Polish workers to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do e.g. gutting and sorting.

If you don't see the very important role immigrant workers play in our economy then fine, there's no point us even discussing it.

As this is meant to be a message board about the Chris Moyles show I think that's enough politics. Just hope in future you won't post such hypocritical nonsense, with nothing to back up your ideas. I still reckon your a WUM!

Its not a case of not wanting to do the jobs, it's more a case of not accepting the below average wages which is normal to foreigners. If you ran a business would you employ people willing to work for 4 pound an hour, or would you employ those who wouldn't work for less than the minimum wage? I know which ones I'd employ. As for the fishing industry, that covers a very small part of Scotland, mainly up North, your not gonna get much of that in Glasgow or Edinburgh are you? So it's not really a good example is it?

The only thing I do agree with you about is that this thread is getting boring, it all stemmed from the fact that I don't have a TV licence FFS.

[Sidders]

And the Nazis.

Thats laughable at most, you think a party of the same caliber as the nazis would be allowed to exist freely in Britain?

Do you know how Nazi Germany started?

In the years following the Nazi rise to power, many Jews fled the country and were encouraged to do so. By the Nuremberg Laws passed in 1935, Jews were stripped of their German citizenship and denied government employment. Most Jews employed by Germans lost their jobs at this time, which were being taken by unemployed Germans. Notably, the Nazi government attempted to send 17,000 German Jews of Polish descent back to Poland, a decision which led to the assassination of Ernst vom Rath by Herschel Grynszpan, a German Jew living in France. This provided the pretext for a pogrom the Nazi Party incited against the Jews on 9 November 1938, which specifically targeted Jewish businesses. The event was called Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass, literally "Crystal Night"); the euphemism was used because the numerous broken windows made the streets look as if covered with crystals. By September 1939, more than 200,000 Jews had left Germany, with the Nazi government seizing any property they left behind.

[Mafro]

The BNP are one massive joke.

[whytie]

Do you know how Nazi Germany started?

This is the 21st century mate. In a day and age when America rules the world nothing of the caliber of the world wars will ever start again. Not in our lifetimes anyway.

Whats the problem anyway? I merely stated that some of the BNP's policies made sense. Don't see how this has anything to do with the Nazis. It's not like the BNP would start gassing people if (and they never will) they got into power.

[Mafro]

Their policies may make sense to racists, but not normal people.